so at the top of the show under comcast tradition, we asked you, why are you awake? producer john tower with all the answers. john. >> biff writes, armstrong, te'o, we can't trust anything anymore. the next thing we'll learn is that barnicle is a hologram. elliott, you're looking better already, and lighten up. life's not that serious. >> it's true life isn't that serious. next time i do the show, i'll do three things. i'll put my hand through mike barnicle. two, i'll do the entire program through body limericks and knock-knock jokes. and three -- "morning joe" starts right now. we have a recording of a phone conversation between manti and his supposed girlfriend.

i've got to be honest. i'm surprised manti didn't pick up on the hoax sooner. take a listen to this. >> hey, baby, what are you up to tonight? >> your call is very important. please listen carefully as the options have changed. >> yeah, i'm thinking i might stay in tonight. >> me, too. i plan on just chilling like a villain, laughing out loud. but seriously, i miss you. >> i mean, that right there, i could tell something was up. i don't know. >> friday, january 18th. good morning, everyone. i'm mike barnicle. i'm here. i've got four imaginary friends with me. filling in here for joe and mika today. with us on set, msnbc and "time" magazine senior editor, mark halperin, national affairs editor for "new york" magazine and msnbc political analyst, john heilemann. cohost of msnbc's "the cycle," s.e. cupp and gillian tete.

>> he's not real. i can tell you. >> wait a minute. how did i get here? >> i asked siri. i've been dating siri. i don't know. i don't care about lance armstrong. >> you have no opinion or just dismissing the whole story? >> but he has to be the luckiest guy in the world. >> or the other way around. >> manti te'o comes in and just takes the whole thing away. >> back when i was a kid when you talked sports stories, you talked about real things like salary disputes and ratings, not all these controversies. >> the manti te'o thing, there's one aspect of it that i find kind of really, really interesting. and it is this. we live in a culture, if you look around today, people walking around on their cell phones, walking through traffic, almost getting hit by cars, texting people, we live in a no-eye-contact era. so it's not that surprising that

someone is going to go online. that happens all the time, okay? this guy, what i think happened with this guy, first of all, i figure, he's not exactly a mensa number, right? >> he's got a pretty good gpa. >> i don't think so. >> you think he was taking, like, astronomy? >> mike, he almost pulled off one of the greatest hoaxes ever. let's give him a little credit. you. >> think he was in on it from the beginning, then? >> i tend so. some of the details really don't make sense. and really, the media deserves all the blame here. i can't imagine being an editor at a newspaper or a magazine, seeing this story of this gorgeous stanford girl that this great football player met and not dispatching a reporter immediately to go meet her and put her on camera. there was just total negligence all the way around. >> no one knew about her until -- i mean, really no one knew about her until after, oh, she's dead. she died of leukemia.

that's when it became a big story. >> sure. but in this day and age, it is so easy, information is at our fingertips. it is so easy to check and recheck some of this information. >> no record of her at stanford. there's a lot of things you would have thought someone would have picked up on. what was your theory? you never got to your theory. did you ever get to your full theory? >> yeah, i just think -- you know, too many people have created this imaginary texting, tweeting world. >> i thought there was going to be a more elaborate theory beyond that. >> no. beyond the dead girlfriend, she dies of leukemia, she was in a car crash and everything like that. it's human nature if you're a reporter. i agree with you on the media. manti, i'm sorry, you know, your girlfriend, she died of leukemia and everything. do you have her death certificate on you? >> dpexactly. i need some proof. >> you want to talk to her family, her friends. that's covering the story. >> it was him. he was the story. >> she turned out to be the story, didn't she? >> yeah, sure did, yeah.

>> the thing that's interesting about him and armstrong together, the media thing, both kind of -- on some basic level implausible stories that people, including a lot of reporters, kind of wanted to believe. there was a lot of willing suspension of disbelief in both stories. where the basic facts, we look back on them, nothing really adds up here. but at the time people want so much to believe in these stories that they're willing to kind of withhold skepticism. >> i agree. >> we're going to keep -- we'll get to you in a sec. we're going to stir this a little later in the program. dave ziron of "the nation" will join us. one of the longest-running lies in sports is at least partially over. there's no doubt that lance armstrong's remarkable journey of comeback and triumph was a fraudulent fairy tale. in an interview aired last night with oprah winfrey, armstrong, the disgraced seven-time tour de france winner confessed repeatedly to cheating throughout his cycling career. >> wow. >> did you ever take banned substances to enhance your

cycling performance? >> yes. >> yes or no? was one of those banned substances epo? >> yes. >> did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> did you ever use any other banned substances like testosterone? cortisone or human growth hormone? >> yes. >> yes or no? in all seven of your tour de france victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope? >> yes. >> was it a big deal to you? did it feel wrong? >> at the time? >> mm-hmm. >> no. >> it did not even feel wrong? >> no. it's scary. >> did you feel bad about it? >> no. even scarier.

>> did you feel in any way that you were cheating? >> no. the scariest. i have this exercise, because i kept hearing -- >> that you're a cheat. >> i'm a cheat, i'm a cheater. and i went in and looked up -- i just looked up the definition of cheat. >> yes. >> and the definition of cheat is to gain an advantage on a rival or foe, you know, that they don't have. i didn't do it that way. i viewed it as -- as a level playing field. >> all right. so we all have pretty much the same reaction to that. >> he should have looked up the definition of sociopath. >> sociopath. he's clearly got a lot of pr consultants and was trying to execute something there. no one could look at that and think, oh, sympathetic. >> you know what that reminds me of is that two years ago i went down to north carolina prison to interview bernie madoff. and looking at him face to face, i asked a series of questions.

and i had exactly that same robotic response in that he's been told by his pr team, he has to "a," look at he's telling the truth and "b," that he's sorry. you get the feeling he's almost talking about somebody else. there's this element of detachment. and you realize that coming back to john's question, how do people sustain this? they manage to con others partly because for years, i think conning themselves, and basically dealing with lies. they've been compartmentalizing. and acting as if the person doing this stuff is somebody else. >> now, do you think people care about this, or are these yesterday? >> i think they do. for me, i tend to believe rumor and hearsay when i hear it. so years ago, the first time i started hearing this innuendo of him cheating, i believed it. i thought he was a pretty bad guy. i can only imagine for the people who really believed in him and supported him and defended him that yeah, this matters. that yeah, this is going to have

a really deleterious on culture and sports. but i think in another setting, he'd be a wall street cheat. he could be a serial killer in another setting. it's the same kind of behaviors. it's really, really scary stuff. >> i have to say, i'm maybe at the center of the table. i don't have any sympathy for the guy, and his conduct in his life, the thuggishness and the way in which he's -- the way he's treated people who work for him, the way he treated journalists, people who challenged him, over the course of time, the guy exhibited a lot of horrific behavior. but i will say, this is a dirty sport. and there is something true to the fact when he says, i was leveling the playing field. it is the fact that almost everyone in competitive cycling at a high level is doping. and that doesn't make it right because it's a rule you shouldn't break the rules. but he's not -- you can't say that the entire sport is made up

of sociopaths. it's just not true. they're not all sociopaths. there's been a systematic thing that's happened in that sport and a lot of other competitive sports where it became pervasive, and people who wanted to be at the highest level came to convince themselves that they needed to have this in order to be competitive. >> so in response to your question, you know, do you care? part of the reason i think a lot of people at some level do not care is because the sport itself is not -- it's a european sport. >> blame it on the europeans. >> it's a european sport. >> you're such a jingoist, barnicle. >> it's a southern european sport. >> mike, it's exactly the same thing that happened in baseball. and there was a period of time where a lot of players that we know, some we admire, some we don't admire, there was a period of time where, you know, a lot of really -- players who had been great players -- >> absolutely. >> -- decided -- barry bonds, would have been one of the great players in the history of baseball whether he ever took a

drug in his life. prior to the moment he decided he needed to juice. you know, there was a period of time in baseball where we all watched it happen, and it wasn't a small thing. it wasn't aberrational. it wasn't like there were a couple random sociopaths. it was dozens of players on every team. >> the big difference, before we get to the rest of the armstrong story, is in baseball, no one said anything. owners didn't say anything. other players didn't say anything. in cycling with armstrong, a lot of people were saying stuff. >> in many ways that's why it was so instructive because many people think that finance on wall street has been rigged explicitly or implicitly, and yet it's taken a long time until we discovered somebody like bernie madoff. to my mind, one of the most interesting issues with the interview with armstrong is he felt this need to keep control. he had to control the environment. he had to control the situation. and that, again, is so similar to madoff. >> sports is filled with cheating and everybody knows it, but there is an aspect of this story that oprah asked lance

armstrong which is about in order to cover up, he told a lot of lies. that included emma o'reilly, armstrong's former masseuse. she said lance, quote, tried to make her life a living hell after she went public with some of the details of his doping operation. >> what do you want to say about emma o'reilly? >> hey, she -- she's one of these people that i have to apologize to. >> mm-hmm. >> she's one of these people that got run over, got bullied. >> yeah. isn't she -- you sued her. >> to be honest, oprah, we sued so many people, i'm sure we did. >> you're suing people and you know that they're telling the truth. what is that? >> it's -- it's a major flaw, and it's a guy who expected to

get whatever he wanted and to control every outcome. it's inexcusable. and that's -- when i say that there are people that will hear this and will never forgive me, i understand that. >> chilling. >> you know, it's a major flaw. i'm sorry, emma, you know. >> sorry i sued you. it's part of my scheme. >> pretty cold. >> you don't always get a grasp on the ripple effect of some of these scandals. they feel immensely personal. you can sort of dismiss them because it's just sports. if you look at recent hall inductions or noninductions, mike piazza really suffered at the hands of everyone else in that circle at the time. he suffered from innuendo about juicing when there was really no proof that he did. yes, i'm sticking up for mike piazza, barnicle. i'm a fan. i'm a huge fan.

and i don't know that he'll ever get into the hall. he might. i hope he would. but the sort of ripple effect of these stories goes beyond just the people in your personal life, goes beyond just the press. it goes to people whose entire reputations get impugned because of the actions of a few. >> and yet if you are a sociopath, what you do is block out the feelings of others. and you have such tunnel vision and you basically create your own world and your split world inside your head. that's what was going on for years. in many ways it's a huge pr disaster for armstrong because he comes across as such a robotic, uncaring figure. if he had at least cried or looked as if he was sorry. having watched that -- >> should he not have done it, do you think? >> personally, i think it was a mistake to do it like this particularly on oprah winfrey which is supposed to be about showing your emotions. >> outstays on rehearsals, they

executed just the way they had it planned. >> what happens when sociopath merges with megalomania? >> tiger woods? >> bernie madoff. >> the baseball hall last week made me think about this -- >> let's leave manti out of this. >> the thing with all sports and all society have to reckon with at some point is the fact that the technology and science are going to raise these questions over and over again as we go forward. because it's not totally clear where you start -- where you draw the lines. right now we think tommy johns surgery is okay, even though you come back with a stronger arm than you had before. that's a medical enhancement. that's not something that's part of your natural gift. that's something that you earned. at some point we'll have laser surgery that will allow them to see better. is that a drug? is that something you should be allowed to have or not? people will be able to do things scientifically, technologically

to their bodies to make them better performers without any effort. so where do the lines get drawn? how do we figure out how to cope with the march of science? >> like a futurologist. >> last month bartolo colon, came back from a 93 miles an hour. >> that's okay but hgh isn't. again, where do the lines get drawn? >> the reason i'm here today is because i had my blood spun last night. >> juicing. >> i'm on a little hamster wheel that makes the spinning happen. >> and all the pop tarts. >> please, you shared them with me. >> the foil wrapping. coming up, nbc news political director, chuck todd, "the washington post's" gene robinson, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory and the ceo of whole foods, john mackey will be here. up next, "the politico playbook." first, bill karins. bill, it is winter. you're going to tell us it's going to get cold. this is a real bulletin. >> yeah, almost like armstrong's

confession, right? couldn't see that one coming. yes, you do need to be prepared for it. and this morning there's one slippery spot out there after the snow in virginia and income new york, watch out for black ice. cape cod got clipped by a little snow. you may see flurries in new york city, philadelphia during the day, pennsylvania and definitely near buffalo. but the big story is what's going to happen the end of this weekend into the beginning of next week. we're in a mild weather pattern right now. it lasts today, tomorrow. by the time we get to next week, a huge plunge of cold air just blasts down from canada all the way through the northern plains, great lakes, ohio valley and into the northeast. here's your forecast today. a beautiful day. enjoy it while it lasts. this is the last warm day you'll see for a long time in minneapolis and all through wisconsin. even chicago, we'll get much colder over the weekend. saturday is your last warm day in chicago. look at the east coast. no problems at all. 47 in d.c. 48 in new york. florida is warm. texas is nice. but then by sunday, that's when that frigid air mass comes down. a high of only five in

minneapolis. some of that cold air will make its way to washington, d.c., for the inauguration. that's at noon on monday. calling for a sun and cloud mix, maybe a flurry or two. temperature, 34 with windchills in the 20s. it will be chilly in d.c. for the inauguration. but overall, no problems whatsoever for the events, the pageantry and that big parade. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ if loving you is wrong

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[ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today. turns out that the subway footlong is sometimes 11 inches. we have been $5 foot wronged. now we know how jared lost all that weight!

he starved to death! subway, it is over. i'm going to be keeping you honest by measuring every sandwich with the most accurate means possible, my fruit by the foot. >> i don't know, lance armstrong, manti te'o, now subway sandwiches. >> who can you trust? >> my world is crushed. let's take a look at the "morning papers." "the financial times." china's economic growth has hit its slowest rate in 13 years. still the country's gdp grew by 7.8%. economists say it could have been worse. they note amid concerns of a slowdown, china's government has spurred heavy investment in inf infrastructure. >> "usa today." congress, inexperienced. 40% of lawmakers in the house have fewer than three years' experience. the lowest number since at least

1995. as a result, new members are often receiving committee assignments that previously took years to achieve. from our "parade of papers," "the dallas morning news." inspectors say recently examined levee systems are at risk of failure in 37 states. the affected systems are in every region of the country and impact some 10 million people. the inspectors rated 326 levees in need of urgent repair. >> pauline phillips, the woman who began the dear abby column has died. she was known as sympathetic yet tart tone. she died wednesday in minneapolis after living with alzheimer's for more than a decade. she was 94. and i truly wonder how many people under who years old know who that is. >> the question is who do i write to now? heilmann? >> miss manners. >> that's right. >> she's got a lot of good advice. >> "portland oregonian." a portland woman declines how to

say she got trapped between two walls in a parking garage. a man saw her around 4:00 in the morning and then heard a scream. when firefighters arrived, she found her trapped. crews cut holes in the walls and covered her in a soaplike substance to ease her out of the crevice. what? >> i missed the beginning. she doesn't know how she got there? >> she went to meet manti te'o. >> we found her. there is other news besides lance armstrong and te'o. the president is planning to unveil his gun-control plan. there's some polling. our hot off the press nbc news/"wall street journal" show 56% think it's too strict, 7%, less strict, and then goldiloc s goldilocks, 35% say they should stay where they are.

vice president biden met with 270 mayors yesterday. he's trying to get them to become part of a coalition to build public support for the white house proposals. >> there's some who say the most powerful voice in this debate belongs to the gun lobbies and those who demand the stop to these common-sense approaches to save lives. i think they're wrong. this time -- this time will not be like times that have come before. newtown has shocked the nation. high-capacity magazines don't have a practical sporting purpose or hunting purpose. as one hunter told me, if you've got 12 rounds, you've got 12 rounds, it means you've already missed the deer 11 times. you should pack the sucker in at that point. you don't deserve to have a gun, period, you're that bad. >> all right. so there's some stuff in the nbc news/"wall street journal" about the nra.

41% think of them positively, 34% negative. hollywood think 23% favorable, 46% negatively. we talked before about lance armstrong and pr. clearly the nra has got a pr challenge here. how do you think they've done so far since newtown in positioning themselves to be strong in this fight? >> why are you looking at me, mark? >> i'm just starting with you randomly. i went alphabetical. >> yeah, the nra has had good days and bad days in this. and actually, that depends how you look at it. even when the nra has a bad day and the media is calling them too aggressive, that's a good day for the nra. that usually ends up working in their favor in terms of membership. but, you know, i think the politics of maligning the nra is probably not a strategically good idea. that poll, for example, showing

the favorability numbers, gun sales have skyrocketed, there's been an urgency to vilify the nra. for example, there's an ad out right now, one of a dozen, maligning a congressman named john barrow, a democrat in georgia. it's a democrat-on-democrat sort of hate crime ad. and it blames him essentially for newtown. why? because he endorsed -- he was endorsed by the nra. i don't think that that's going to play very well. and i think that paints a lot of people in the middle of this issue into the corner. and puts a really uneasy feeling in their mouths. i think gun-control advocates would be much smarter to focus on the actual legislation and proposals rather than maligning the nra. it's just not going to work out well. >> i couldn't agree more. a lot of liberals and a lot of non-americans like piers morgan or myself do find the situation amazing, and we'd just love to believe that the nra is losing

the pr war. and yet all the opinion polls and surveys show that a significant chunk of americans support the nra. and when you attack them, if anything, that support goes up. and so i completely agree. focusing on the issues and focusing on a specific piece of legislation, we're often trying to attack an entire cultural group and way of life is just a complete no-brainer. >> wait. the nra is not a way of life. and it's not representative of most gun owners. it's not representative of a whole slice of life. it's an interesting group that mainly represents manufacturers and money. and it's been a very powerful interest group that has brought a lot of this criticism on itself in the way that it's conducted the side of the fight. for the last 20 years, the nra has employed the most -- and i take my hat off to it. it's been an incredibly effective association. no conversation that we've had

in this country about gun control for 20 years because of what happened in 1994 when the nra played hardball politics and killed congressmen for having voted for the assault weapons ban. so the notion that people on the other side of this issue who do represent the majority of people in the country are standing up and saying look, in addition to trying to move on sledge lags, we're going to try to rally a countervailing political force that stands up in districts around the country and tries to flex its muscles and says no, this is not going to be a game where one side plays hardball politics. there's going to be consequences at the ballot box in two years. that doesn't seem to me to be a totally crazy strategy for people who want to try to play the short and long game in terms of getting this done. >> but in actuality, the nra represents gun owners, the national sports foundation represents manufacturers. that doesn't mean they haven't

taken corporate money. they have. the average is $7. >> how does the nra -- >> it's not surprising when the nra is targeted. >> how does the nra not represent gun manufacturers? >> that's what i'm saying. technically it doesn't. it represents gun owners. >> but come on. come on. you're claiming the nra is just out there -- >> they've also taken corporate money from manufacturers. i've said that. >> the top of the house at the nra, you think they are more in the game for people with vests out in the woods than they are -- >> that is their mission, absolutely. >> they obviously have taken money from and are aligned with the corporate interests. but they do primarily represent gun owners. >> what do they do to represent them? >> they lobby for policy and legislation. >> policies their members support. and they also do gun safety and gun training. they do. >> they spend millions every year, mike, in gun safety training. they don't have to. they do it because they realize it's probably politically good and a good idea for gun owners.

>> but they have basically tried to blur the corpas spekt by wrapping themselves in the american flag and trying to have the debate on cultural terms as much as anything else, and that's why by attacking them means you get into a cultural debate, and that's not good for legislation. >> but sometimes people in the northeast make the mistake assuming their power comes from corporate money. their power comes primarily from their membership. >> from their membership, yeah. >> it's important to remember that right now one of the other things that the other side sees here is that there is some fracturing within the nra -- >> there's an opportunity. >> there are a bunch of people in the nra who disagree with the nra's position. i think some of this polling shows on things like the assault weapons ban and universal background checks, the majority of nra members disagree with the body's policy position. >> that's the ultimate political mistake, to align the nra membership -- >> yes, don't malign the membership. >> malign the top of the house. >> that's the biggest mistake so far is probably this video they put out with the president's kids, and they drew criticism

yesterday. new jersey governor chris christie, a huge leader in the party, came out against the nra and that web video/ad that put the president's daughters into this debate. >> to talk about the president's children or any public officer's children who have not by their own choice but by requirement, to have protection and to use that somehow to try to make a political point i think is reprehensible. i think it's awful to bring public figures' children into the political debate. they don't deserve to be there. and i think for any of us who are public figures, you see that kind of ad and you cringe. >> how do you think that ad went down with the membership? >> his sentiments aside, what a missed opportunity for chris christie. a couple days ago he was asked to weigh in on gun control. and he said, i have no influence over congress. i'm not going to get involved. now, yesterday he did release a statement about his feelings on

gun control. but at that point you were thinking, wow! wouldn't you like to hear from chris christie? his state is not too far from connecticut. it has one of the toughest gun laws in the country. i'd like his opinion. and instead the first thing you hear out of him are thinks thoughts on this ad. i just think it really kind of cheapened the debate and cheapened his influence. he had a real opportunity there and he squandered it. >> yeah. it's not the first thing he said about the thing. i mean, he was here with us. you know, he went after gun control. >> it was what the media seized on because here you have a republican going after the nra. >> that's us. that's not christie. >> sure, but he's aware of that. he's aware of what he says and how it's going to be taken. he knew what he was doing when he came out so strongly against that ad. and i think it really muted whatever other sentiments, whether i agree with them or not, about gun control. >> what do you disagree with him on? >> oh, well, you know, as a gun rights advocate, i disagree that banning wide categories of guns

is either effective -- >> but not the ad. do you find that ad reprehensible? >> oh, reprehensible? no. i think they were making a point. i don't think they made it particularly well. the point was valid. >> by throwing everyone's kids, in effect, into the argument, you don't find that reprehensible? >> i think they were making a point -- >> what was the point? >> -- about a desire to keep all of our children safe and trying to suggest that the president has that desire as well, and that's what we should be focusing on. >> if democrats had done an ad on president bush's kids, you wouldn't have cared? >> have, have. >> on president bush's kids? >> every president's kids have been misused -- >> really? liberal groups went after the president's daughters? >> i'd like to see the example of that. i'd like to see that example. >> i'm sure i could. >> find it, please. find the ad run by a liberal group that cited president bush's children explicitly. i'd like to see that ad. have your research staff work on th that. it doesn't exist. >> okay. i'll find you something. i think the sentiment behind the

ad was really right on. and maybe they didn't do the best job of sort of singling out that message. but i don't find it reprehensible, no. >> i tell you what. we're going to bail you out right now. >> okay. thanks. coming up, more on lance armstrong coming clean. sort of. admitting to a 13-year lie. plus the latest developments in the manti te'o internet hoax. sports editor for "the nation" dave ziron joins us next here on "morning joe." the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annual bonus. and everyone but her likes 50% more cash, but i have an idea. do you want a princess dress? yes. cupcakes? yes. do you want an etch-a-sketch? yes! do you want 50% more cash? no. you got talent. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on every purchase plus a 50% annual bonus on the cash you earn.

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top ten signs you have an imaginary girlfriend. number ten, you describe her to friends as a nondescript female with eyes and hair. number six, someone says, tell me about your girlfriend. you say, hmm, let me think of something. number four, everyone can tell you're arguing on the phone with siri. number three, she's never upset when you forget her imaginary birthday. number two, always pressuring you to pretend to buy engagement ring. number one sign you have an imaginary girlfriend, says she's too shy to meet your friends, your family and you. >> all right. >> i don't think number one hit it. >> no. >> the others were pretty good. >> that was an imaginary top-ten

list. joining us now from washington, the highly caffeinated, he has to be highly caffeinated at this point, sports editor for "the nation" magazine, dave ziron, author of "game over: how politics have turned the sports world upside down." dave, we appreciate you hanging around here. my god, you did "way too early" with halperin and you're still here. this is terrific. >> highly rated. is >> this has been like the super bowl of sports politics over the last 48 hours. i forgot my kids' names. >> we've pretty much labeled lance armstrong a sociopath, a megalomaniac. did he do himself any favors last night in the first of two parts with oprah? >> none whatsoever. another word i would use is reptilian. the cold-blooded nature of armstrong. he was practically flicking his tongue out for flies while he was talking to oprah.

if his goal was to sort of bathe himself in oprah's healing light, i actually felt like it had the opposite effect. like oprah was like a spotlight exposing every flaw in the salty texan's demeanor. he was supposed to be contrite. he was supposed to have this be a confessional when instead it felt much more combative, and instead he actually rejected the findings of the u.s. anti-doping agency, an organization that he's trying to make peace with so they left his lifetime ban. if he was a political figure, to take it to your guys' world, his handlers would be sued for malpractice for the way he may haved last night. >> dave, it's john heilemann. i'm curious to drill into that a little further. i get that he's trying to get the lifetime ban lifted, but this has opened him up to a lot of legal jeopardy. he's involved in a lot of civil litigation. he could be sued for fraud. there's all this stuff. his medals will be stripped now. i don't get the cost benefit analysis. beyond his image, what does he

gain tangibly from doing this given what he could lose tangibly from doing this? >> right. and what he could lose, let's be clear, is everything. i mean, there is a macy's thanksgiving day conga line of lawyers outside his compound looking to get a piece of his $100 million fortune. but i've spoken to people around armstrong. and it really is twofold why he's coming out now. actually threefold. the first is that the statute of limitations on his last testimony in 2005 just ran out. so he can talk about this without fear of actual criminal prosecution. the second is that the guy is a competition junkie. and he really does want to be part of the competitive world again. he wants to be a competitive triathlete. and usada holds all the cards in that regard. if they don't lift the ban, he's not competing. and the third thing is that he actually did feel very damaged by their findings which painted him as kind of the tony soprano of the cycling world. not just another p.e.d. user but somebody who threatened, bullied and facilitated the doping use

among his entire team. but that put him in a very difficult situation which i frankly think he failed spectacularly where he needed to show usada he was willing to play ball but at the same time pushing back against their report. >> the genius of oprah, it's all about empathy and emotion and about the human condition, both good and bad, about recognizing our weaknesses and move on. and yet what you got last night was not a lot of empathy, not a lot of emotion, and his reptilian nature, you say, came out almost more clearly. so why oprah? >> it's a -- it was like watching savion glover dance with dom deluise. she was, like, lance, i'm dying here. >> very good. >> help me, please. help me meet the moment here, lance. to use oprahspeak. help me meet the moment. she kept trying to throw him these life lines to be, like, now let's talk about your childhood. maybe your mom, something, lance, talk to me here.

but this is just a combative guy. you don't win seven tour de frances by accident. it's the most grueling sport in the world. except for maybe politics. and he's somebody who did not want to give any of his emotion. and i have no problem with him not wanting to be part of that kabuki theater, then why do it in the first place? >> dave, i'm going to gross over your anti-dom deluise sentiment and switch to the other big story, the te'o story. the time line is something people are really interested in. notre dame says te'o found out about the hoax december 6th last year, then two days later he was on espn radio. and he was talking about her death. he brought it up voluntarily on the day that the heisman awards were being given out. >> my coaches, you know, when the tragedy struck -- that hit me on september 12th, they were always there. they were the first ones that were there. they were always there. they were calling me every minute of the day making sure that, you know, everything was okay and that i was holding up well.

there's a reason why the heavenly father sent me to notre dame, and that was one of them. >> manti, you mentioned the tragedy. you lose your girlfriend and grandmother in the same week, right? i want to make sure that's correct. >> same day. >> same day. what do you think both of those ladies would say to you, being a heisman trophy finalist? >> i -- i hope that my grandma and my girlfriend would say that they're proud. not only that i'm here but the way that i conducted myself and just always to remain humble, be gracious and always to acknowledge the heavenly father in all things. >> dave, we talked earlier on "way too early" on his position in the draft is questionable. notre dame has a stake, too. they've also potentially got a problem, right? >> yeah, they're in a ton of trouble right now. their athletic director, jack swarbrick, he did a press conference where he cried and talked about how notre dame had paid for their own private investigation which showed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, he

basically said that manti te'o was the victim of a hoax. we're going to find out in the days ahead, i think, that that's not the case. and this is going to cause serious ripples at notre dame because the notre dame football program in recent years has been no stranger to scandal. there's been a sexual assault, horrible scandals, that have been connected to the football team. there was no private investigation into those assaults. a young woman from st. mary's took her own life after trying to come forward with sexual assault allegations. that was never investigated by the school with private investigators. that never got tears from the athletic director. this is going to cause serious problems for a school that really is one of the icons of the united states. >> yeah. i mean, notre dame is going to take a huge hit on this. huge, huge hit. if he had played at occidental, no one would know about his imaginary girlfriend, but notre dame will take a huge hit, and deservedly so, as dave points out. dave, thanks very much. up next, mike allen joins us with the "political playbook."

you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

there it is, the terre haute, indiana, airport. no, no, that's reagan national in washington, d.c. thus with us now, chief white house correspondent for "politico," mike allen here with the morning "playbook." mike, go, hit it. >> happy friday and happy inaugural weekend. >> beautiful. >> signature. >> yeah, absolutely. valerie jarrett, we just had a still picture of valerie coming in. and she is the focus in this morning's "politico," hugely, hugely influential figure. >> yeah. we stopped by yesterday, talked to valerie jarrett in her second floor west wing office. used to be hillary clinton's office, karl rove's office. and women have complained over the years about working in this west wing.

but valerie jarrett said, i don't play golf. i don't particularly like to play cards. but nobody's going to question whether i have a role around here. so she said she's encouraged women who have come to work for this president to speak up. she said a lot of the women who came in who didn't work in the campaign didn't really know what the president wanted. and she said he likes people who argue, likes people who are going to help him make a better decision. so she said she acts as a resource for women in this administration and that this administration is going to get more diverse as it goes along. she also said that both the president and she will be traveling more around the country this year as they ramp up their engagement with business leaders, other supporters around the country. the president, since the election, has talked to 50 ceos and other business leaders. they've had 300 small business leaders come into the white house. this is all part of valerie jarrett's empire. she says she'll be doing more of that in the days ahead to get

both immigration and a gun-control package passed this year. >> mike, always interesting in any two-term presidency, who stays all eight years at the staff level? what's your prediction? will valerie still till the end? >> she will. we asked her about the post-presidency. she joked she hopes the president will spend a lot of time in hawaii, that she'll probably go back to chicago. she also said that in the next few -- she also said in the president's inaugural address, he's going to take a hopeful tone and he's going to talk to every citizen about the role that they have to play in the agenda that he has for the next couple years. >> boy, that's going to take a lot of time, talk to every citizen. >> not just the 53%. >> mike allen, thanks very much. still ahead, chuck todd, eugene robinson and david gregory, and we're going to be back in a minute. at 1:45, the aflac duck was brought in

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we're going to head to monday, "morning joe" and "way too early" will be live from dubliner for the inauguration. come and join us live starting at 5:30 a.m. coming up next, "the washington post's" gene robinson and "politico's" jonathan martin. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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i have never doped. i can say it again. but i've said it for seven years. it doesn't help. >> when i came out of a life-threatening disease, i was on my death bed. you think i'm going to come back in a sport and say okay, doctor, give me everything you've got. i want to go fast. no, i would never do that. >> i'm just trying to make sure your testimony is clear. >> if i can't be any clearer, i have never taken drugs, then

incidents like that could never happen. how clear is that? >> did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> yes or no? was one of those banned substances epo? >> yes. >> did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> did you ever use any other banned substances like testosterone? cortisone? or human growth hormone? >> yes. >> yes or no? in all seven of your tour de france victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope? >> yes. >> ask yourselves this, america. what are you going to do with all those yellow rubber bracelets today? man. welcome back to "morning joe." i'm mike barnicle in today for joe and mika. mark halperin, john heilemann,

s.e. cupp and gillian tett are still with us. associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst and all-around good guy, eugene robinson. how are you? >> i'm fine. how are you, mike? >> i'm at the top of my game and i'm not on anything. how about that? >> i saw you slipping that epo during the commercial, and i wasn't going to say anything, but since you're telling a different story now, mike. >> gene, here's a question for you. given your knowledge of the newspaper business and our knowledge of the journalism business, how long do you think it is before some news outlet is going to start sniffing around the books of the -- you know, livestrong foundation to find out what has happened over the years with all of the money? i mean, they've done some great things. they've given a lot of people hope. i don't want to negate that about lance armstrong. how long is it going to be before you think that happens?

>> a couple of nanoseconds. i would be shocked and stunned if it weren't already happening. and that's kind of -- that's going to be a huge mess. there's going to be -- what does he now owe to livestrong, and where did the money go anyhow? that's going to be something not only for reporters to pore over but i'm sure attorneys are going to be poring over those books. this is just the beginning, i think, of revelations and sleuthing is going to happen. >> gene, we're going to give you some real news to talk about. >> okay. >> brand-new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll taking the measure where we are with congress and the eyes of the weekend. the president's approval rating, 52%, 44% disapprove. congress, the president on the economy, still pretty much dividing the country, but he's,

you know, given the state of the economy, doing pretty well, right around 50% on approval there. and we've got some congressional numbers. congress, as john mccain likes to say, when congress is at 14% approval rating, they're down to close relatives and paid staff. >> i want to find the 14%. >> friends and family, that's all. >> 81% disapprove. and then on the republican party, 49% have a negative view of the republican party. just 26% positive. that's their highest negative number since back in 2008, the year president obama first got elected. democrats not doing much better, but better, 38% view the democratic party negatively. so gene, the president's had a pretty good time politically since the election. republicans are starting to figure out how to come back. to the extent republicans have leverage in the upcoming talks, particularly on fiscal issues, where do you think their leverage lies given how unpopular they are and how unpopular congress is? >> well, i think they have less leverage than some people think they have. i mean, i think it would be,

frankly, another disaster if republicans try to use the debt ceiling, to force dollar-for-dollar budget reductions. i don't see that as a winner for them, and i can't imagine at least the party establishment is now seeing that as a potential winner for them. i mean, you know, face it. the president won the election. and he laid out a program and a philosophy, and he won the election on it. and i think as long as republicans are going to take the stance that he didn't win and that, in fact, they won and therefore they get to do things their way, i don't think -- i don't see how that's going to help them get out of that 14% hole. >> eugene, nbc.com had a very interesting way of putting it this morning, a very nice tag which is that what the electorate is looking for right now is not so much hope but a president who can cope. it's all about coping, not so

much hoping. do you think that this kind of poll suggests that he is going to be able to deliver on that message of coping? >> well, you know, first of all, i think that's right. i think that, you know, the whole atmosphere around the second inauguration, it's just different, right? four years ago, there was a sense of moment, a sense of history and enormous anticipation. and now with any second inauguration, a lot of that is missing and really people are wondering whether things are going to get better. and so i think this is very much about the nuts and bolts of governing for the next four years and what the president's able to accomplish. he's laying out an agenda, and i think he'll be judged on how well he does. that's against a back drop, though, of people thinking that the economy is gradually getting

better. and i think that's a factor. polls do show that people's mood and view of the economy is a bit better than it had been. >> mark, i just received a j-mart alert here on my iphone. i have a thing that pops up, a buzzer, when he's around. >> i've got not only a officialer, i got a custom one from j-mart himself. >> really? different ringtone than me? >> it said "read me now," and it played "call me maybe." >> let's bring him in, "politico" senior writer, jonathan martin. your piece this morning is about the future of the democratic party. and you write, in part, "as soon as the echo of obama's inaugural address fades and he instantly becomes a lame duck, democrats are going to have to face a central and unresolved question about her political identity. will they become a center-left dlc or return to a populist, left-leaning approach that mirrors their electoral coalition? the party also must reconcile

exactly who they are in a broader panoply of economic issues including wall street regulations and public employees. as 2016 grows nearer and the presidential hopefuls begin openly maneuvering, democrats must decide whether they want to be principally known as the party of rahm emanuel or the party of elizabeth warren. so which way are they going to head, j-mart? >> well, that's the big question hanging over the next four years. really, it's unresolved issue. democrats have finally -- on culture, i think -- come to some consensus. they are supportive of abortion rights, of same-sex marriage and of immigration reform. but guys, as the party has become more of a big-tent party and brought in more moderates who fled the gop, a lot of folks from suburban places around the country, it's become a bit unruly on economics. and i think obama has papered over that for the last four years. but i think that's going to change here in the next few years. the first issue where i think we'll see a conversation on this is the question of entitlements.

there are some folks in the democratic party who are happy to have a conversation on issues like the eligibility age for medicare. other democrats like sherrod brown, the senator from ohio, i talked to, they say hell, no, we are not going to have a conversation about that. that is core to our dna, and we're not going to move on that. >> j-mart, last time republicans had an internal debate about a lot of these issues, a lot of folks divided the party. you mention smd moderaed some m coming over to the democratic party. do you see a contentious primaries in the future for the 2014 midterms? >> well, look. i don't think you're going to see the sort of club-for-growth-style conservative on moderate attacks that you see in the gop. i think you're going to see some of that. keep in mind, the primary story began '06 when joe lieberman in connecticut faced a threat from his left. we saw it again in arkansas in 2010 with blanch lincoln. it's not been quite the same as

the gop. i think you're going to see more of that. this is really going to play out, though, guys in 2015 and 2016, i think you'll see the fault line in the party populist versus an elite fault line. and i think you'll see him as a reformer taking on public employees, talking about having sort of tighten the belt on fiscal issues. and then you're going to see somebody who is that old-time candidate, talking about populism, holding true to the true faith. >> hey, jonathan, it's heilmann. just to play off that last point. >> yeah. >> is it not the case that if secretary clinton runs in 2016, that this division could get papered over again? she is someone who would be acceptable to both parts of the democratic -- the schism that you're talking about. so first of all, if she runs, does it get papered over again because she becomes the democratic nominee by acclamati acclamation? if they doesn't run, are there other candidates you're thinking

of? >> let me take your second question first. i think those two candidates are sort of the examples that i use because folks can identify their brand of politics. asked whether themselves will be the candidates, i think it's certainly possible. but it's still sometime away. but i think that andrew cuomo could embody rahmism in terms of economic issues, and i think other candidates on the left could embody warren's approach to politics in terms of a much more populist traditional progressive approach. as for your first question, absolutely, john. hillary clinton would, in fact, keep papering over this issue, although i do think there would at least be some kind of a bill bradley-style challenge. in 2000 al gore faced a challenge from bill bradley on his left. it wouldn't be as robust as bradley was in 2000, i don't think -- and that wasn't terribly robust in 2000, but i think there would be some nominal challenge from her left that would say, you know, democrats can't go back to sort

of clinton-style politics. now, given her popularity, as you mentioned, john, across demographic and across ideological lines, i think it would be fairly minimal. there would be some kind of challenge there, i believe. >> gene, jonathan just mentioned sherrod brown's sense that, you know, they weren't going to go near entitlements because entitlements, that's who the democratic party is. that's who they are. entitlements are now 20% think of federal spending. how do the democrats, the republicans, how does this country survive economically without addressing entitlements? and believe me, i love sherrod brown because he's a real baseball guy. how do we get to -- >> indians fan. >> huge indians fan. how do we get to the point where we survive without addressing entitlements? >> well, you have to do something -- you have to address entitlements. we either have to up the ante and pay more for them, or they have to deliver less. there is, i think, a legitimate

question as to whether raising the eligibility age for medicare, for example, is that a good or a bad idea? as a measure that you can take. i don't think it's legitimate to argue that you can do nothing. but it is legitimate to argue if that specific idea is right or whether you have to, on the front end, figure a way to put more money into the system. so you're not creating some sort of gap so you're not leaving people out of the system who we'd all be better off if they were in it. remember part of what we've been trying to do or the affordable care act tried to do is bring more people into a lower-cost health insurance sort of program. are you going to kick some people out of that? is that really a good idea in the long run? that's the kind of discussion, i think, that needs to happen. is this a good idea? is that a bad idea? not do you do something or do you do nothing. >> but eugene, in many ways the

issue of entitlements and the eligibility age is absolutely critical right now because we've had business come out this week a call to raise the entitlement age up to 70. and all the data shows that rich people live a lot longer than poor people, to put it crudely. so if it goes down that path, the president, he really is taking a measure that's going to punish poor people over rich. do you think the president can afford to actually seriously adopt a policy like that which would be absolutely hated by many people on the left inside the democratic party? >> i think that would be difficult. i really do. i think that would create -- there would be a real controversy inside the party. but again, i don't think there's controversy over the question of whether you have to somehow look at entitlements in a way that makes them sustainable. and i think if you focus -- or if the president manages to

focus a discussion on sustainability and have that be the end, that's sort of a lens through which you could evaluate policy alternatives. >> hey, jonathan, on the big topic of the past month, guns and the administration and the greatest vice president in the history of vice presidents pulling together this group -- >> right. >> -- at what point -- what do you think the administration would settle for right now? >> they're going to make a hard push at the outset to do something about assault weapons and the size of some of these magazines. but mike, i have to tell you, i was on the hill earlier this week. i was talking to a lot of moderate republicans, those who are left in the house, guys from pennsylvania, for example, there is no appetite among really any republican i could find in the house for anything like this. they're focused on mental health, on video games and movies, but they don't even want to talk about assault weapons,

ammunition. that is not on their agenda. what they're saying is, we'll see what the senate does, and we'll go from there. as you guys know, that's a total punt. they're just giving up to the senate because they know -- or they're assuming at least that harry reid is not going to make his democrats who are up in 2014 walk the plank on a tough gun vote. so the house guys are saying look, we'll take it up when reid passes it knowing full well there's a small chance that larry reedye harry reid is going to pass a robust bill. if you saw some of the comments this past week from senators like max baucus, mary landrieu, markegich who are up next year, you see why a lot of the house republicans are sort of smiling and saying we'll take it up when it comes over from the senate, wink, wink. >> gene, i guess it's going to be quite a while before i download profiles of courage volume 2 from the united states senate? >> i think it's going to be a while. look, it's been a month since newtown.

and i think it's -- i think you make the case, it's unconscionable to do nothing, right, until the next newtown. i think there's a resonance out in the country. i think people get that this is something we really need to address and get it on an emotional level. but no, you're not going to be reading the updated profiles in courage out of the senate. and maybe they'll surprise us, mike. we've been surprised before. >> mark, i just got a j-mart alert that he's leaving. do you have that one on your app? >> i'll be happy to stay. >> i'll probably get it after he's gone. >> my j-mart alert says you're leaving. >> i usually get one that says "j-mart has left the building." >> jonathan martin. >> like elvis. >> thank you very much. >> good to see y'all. >> politico.com. gene, thank you as well. we'll look for your column on the president's gun proposals in today's "washington post." up next, nbc news political

director, chuck todd, and a preview of "meet the press" with david gregory. look at him, he's so handsome, both of them, wow! first, bill karins with an imaginary forecast. bill. >> and friends. the inaugurations are always a toss-up. they're in the middle of january. every four years they're outdoors with a parade. you never know what you're going to get. four years ago we had windchills in the teens. this time a little warmer. we'll have windchills probably in the 20s. temperature, 34. it will be a mix of sun and clouds. this is monday at noon is when this forecast is for. so overall, not bad. at least they avoided a snowstorm or anything like that. let me take you through the weekend forecast. what a beautiful friday. many warm temperatures. enjoy it in kansas city, denver, st. louis and chicago because here's what the weather map looks like next week. this is sunday, monday, tuesday. the coldest air in all of the northern hemisphere is going to drop down from canada over the great lakes. and we're first going to feel it up there in the northern plains. saturday is the transition day. the cold air begins to move in.

watch the temperature in minneapolis. a high of 32 saturday. and then boom, 5 degrees for your high in minneapolis on sunday. you probably won't even break zero in minneapolis as we go into monday. all that cold air then goes to the great lakes. it will arrive on the east coast come monday and tuesday. so overall, no big snowstorms on the way, but it will be chilly for the inauguration in d.c. come monday. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ man ] visa prepaid opened a new world for me.

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>> what did you think when joe biden cried? >> i thought that was a little sentime sentimental. it touched my heart. >> what did you think of the nicki minaj performance? >> i loved it. urban. >> what did you think of the inauguration last night? >> i didn't like it. >> you didn't like it. did you enjoy the tapper team? >> that was the only thing that was kind of worth it. >> it was fun. >> yeah, it was okay. >> i agree with that last guy. i watched the inauguration last night, and i liked it when the vice president cried. >> saved by the tapper team. >> yeah. i tell you, but i like it, you know, when chuck todd and david gregory cry. and they're both with us right now, crying because they have to be with us. nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd and moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. gentlemen, i'm going to ask each of you the same question to be answered, please, and it is this. the huge budget arguments about to take place, the huge deficit spending stuff, the huge we're

going to face it again, you know, debt ceiling stuff, what is the republican strategy in dealing with the democrats? david. >> you know, mike, i was on capitol hill this week talking to top republicans, and i'm getting a sense and you're seeing it written about as well, that they would maybe like to step away from the brink about the debt ceiling. they do want to force the issue about how can they get this president to agree to additional spending cuts? the debt ceiling is a dangerous game. i think they recognize that politically. they'll push -- the question is how -- how do they push on the debt ceiling? do they say, look, we'll give you a short-term extension of the debt ceiling for a certain amount of spending cuts, or we'll give you a long-term extension like you want for even more spending cuts. can they force entitlement reform around medicare, for instance, even some of the -- in their view -- more limited things that the president wants to do around means testing and age and indexing to try to attach that to a debt-limit

deal. do they move beyond the debt limit, try to get to the continuing resolutions and those kinds of things? they recognize that this is the only area of leverage that they have, but they want to be careful about it. >> so chuck todd, how does the white house deal with that supposed leverage? >> well, first i think the republicans are hoping that they have a manti te'o defense, that somehow it was all a hoax and maybe the election was a hoax and they can go back and redo everything. no. i think the republican -- the white house strategy is make the house republicans try to do something. and i think that -- and my understanding what house republican leadership wants to do is they have to figure out how to pass -- how to pass a raise in the debt limit at all first. to just put something out there to prove that they can get leverage, right? that was something that boehner tried to do with his whole plan "b" during the tax thing. and when he couldn't do that, then suddenly he lost all leverage. so that's the name of the game number one.

and then the second part is what david was talking about there, which is they are trying to figure out how to basically move away from the debt limit as a part of this argument, and that's -- it's easier said than done. they know where they should be having this spending argument, and that is with funding the government. whether they can get the rank and file to that place is another story. and that's why the white house's strategy is go ahead and pass something. you've got that whole dollar-for-dollar spending cuts to debt limit, go ahead and give it a shot. see how you come up with it because the white house doesn't believe that boehner can pass a bill that even meets his own standard of dollar for dollar. >> and i would just add, i think the view among top republicans, republican leaders, is that the well is so poisoned by president obama. i mean, this goes beyond, you know, do they agree or disagree, is there an ideological split, that there is so little trust that they feel that obama is bent on really achieving conquest over the republicans by

the midterms, trying to isolate tea party republicans and not really coming to too much of a deal. you hear the president talk about, well, he'd be willing to make some modifications to the medicare program. i mean, he certainly is not willing to get into a negotiation over that because he thinks it's going to be one-sided. so can just underlines how far apart they are when it comes to any sort of big deal. and the more people i talk to around the hill, people who know the president, that we might be looking at much smaller deals to try to chip away at some of these issues rather than this concept of a grand bargain. >> chuck, we've gotten the new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. horrible numbers for congress overall and pretty bad numbers for the republican brand. yet paul ryan yesterday coming out and as a leader sort of talking about we may need to be more accepting of the fact that we only control the house. we don't have the white house or the senate. can republicans do anything in the context of the debate -- the fiscal debates we're in now to

improve their brand, to improve their standing? >> i think with the middle, they could. the problem, though, is, mark, you know, so they hit their all-time low or high, however you want to characterize this number. it's the worst negative rating we've ever actually recorded for the republican party. but it was republicans. it's republicans who have now a more negative view. there's still more republicans that have a positive view than negative view, but it is core republicans who are upset with the party. so you have to ask yourself, if you're the republican party, who do you win back first, and how do you do it? so if they did a big grand bargain, their favorable ratings would jump a lot with a bunch of voters who may not ever support who they are. that's sort of the political box that i've heard that house leaders, you know, they've got their consultants who tell them, well, look, if you did a big deal and obama and boehner shook hands and it was like, you know,

the israelis and the palestinians shaking hands and everybody was happy and it looked like this great moment, there would be a short-term boost of popularity for them. but could it be sustaining, and do you risk alienating your base? the irony is this fiscal cliff deal, republicans got -- lost ground among republicans. >> absolutely. i mean, listening to this, i have this feeling that we're basically trapped in groundhog day, a sort of nightmare on groundhog day. do you see any chance that this is actually going to be resolved in the next couple of months, or are they going to keep kicking it down the road for the rest of the year? >> that's to you, david. >> yeah, i think there's more trench warfare on the debt ceiling fight, and i think it really is a question of how republicans choose to go about this. again, talking to the leadership, they want to use these moments for maximum leverage even though they are in the minority, they can't run the

government by just controlling the house. the only bit of leverage they have is to try to force some -- even if it's more moderate spending cuts out of the president as part of the debt ceiling deal. and by the way, the president's intransigence on this, this idea that he won't negotiate, republicans are looking at this and saying, well, we actually did get a fair amount of spending cuts the last time we fought on the debt ceiling in the budget control act of last year. the president said that this deal now would have to include an extension of the debt ceiling that they just got to avoid the fiscal cliff. well, he ultimately folded on that. so as a tactical matter, even in their minority position, they can look at this and see, well, there is some gain to be gotten here if we keep pushing on this. i think the flip side of this is also a big challenge for the president. if he really wants to unshackle the economy, if he wants to get more robust economic growth, does he not want to be more proactive about dealing with some of these entitlements, with dealing with the budget picture,

even where he has real problems with his supposed, you know, partners in this to republicans? does he not want to take advantage of the power he has to try to advance this, to get more robust economic growth independent of his misgivings about his partners here on capitol hill. >> chuck, i think it's fair to say that harry reid was somewhat marginalized during negotiation biden sort of swooped in to save the day. what do you see as his role going forward as we edge toward these upcoming fiscal cliffs? >> i still think harry reid has been serving the white house's purpose. he's a pocket veto for the white house. there's a reason why the president's never had to do any vetoes. whenever they don't like something out of the house republicans, it just doesn't get brought up in the senate. he still sort of serves as that. i don't think that -- i don't think that reid is going to, quote, be sidelined the next time, you know.

and i think that they would say, hey, look, we needed to get something done. and if mcconnell was only going to deal with biden, fine. mcconnell and biden can do that. i don't think that's the model going forward. i think reid feels as if, hey, i got 55 votes now. i don't have 53. i'm not a dwindling majority leader as some people thought i was going to be. dwindling a number of democrats and therefore not as much power. i don't think so. and don't forget, this isn't checkers at this point. the white house doesn't want to get harry reid too alienated or they'll never get their gun proposals going because harry reid is not excited about dealing with this gun issue in the senate. he'll do it if his arm's twisted, but they can't keep beating him up on other issues. >> david, it's heilmann here. i want to know from you -- i want to try to take us from the low and mundane and the meh-teh a

petty and the partisan. the president is going to give an important speech, his second inaugural address. what are we going to hear from him that's going to be lofty, inspirational and unifying, if anything? >> you know, i was reading bill clinton's second inaugural where he talks about, you know, the status quo nature of government which we see today as well, that americans a americans are to turn this division the government the way it is. the petty bickering they did for big things. i think the president wants to try to talk about where he feels he can have the most impact in his second term domestically and internationally which is a huge piece, by the way. because i think his first term internationally was about coming home, was about sort of pulling america back from its projection of power. there are so many both real problems and crises but also opportunities for the president. so i think that the speech is really about where he wants to have the most impact.

and i think that's how he'll be judged, and that's where people will really take notice of what he says. >> david, before you tell us who's on "meet the press" this sunday, back to the speech for just a moment. do you think there's any chance at all that the president will address the innings limitations on stephen strasburg? >> you know, i'll tell you something. i had sort of mixed feelings about that at the time, but as you look at the -- as you look at the rg3 situation, i think the nationals look smarter and smarter for preserving the future the way they did. and now we've got soriano. not since i was a boy growing up in los angeles with the great los angeles dodgers have i been in a town with such a robust baseball organization. you remember what that was like in boston, don't you? >> you are pathetic. is rafael soriano on "meet the press" this sunday? no? who is? >> no, but he should. republican ted cruz, chuck

schumer. we've got a great roundtable as well. >> david gregory is the steve garvey of tv news. >> steve garvey is on with chuck todd later, isn't he? >> steve garvey belongs in the hall of fame. it's not even close. we're going to start this campaign. >> chuck todd is the ron cey of tv news. >> the best player on the best team for a decade in the national league is not in the hall of fame. try -- give me a break. >> jimmy piersol is the best player on the red sox in the '50s. >> chuck, who do you identify with more, bill russell or davey lopes? >> he was not hop lpopular in o household. >> steve yeager or joe ferguson? >> steve yeager. >> joe ferguson who hit that winning home run in the 13th in 1980. >> yeager was a co-mvp of the '81 world series. >> i love yeager.

big home run against guidry. >> todd and gregory are nothing more than stan caston wannabes. >> yes. >> of tv news. >> all right, chuck, thanks very much. >> i'm a burt hooten guy. coming up, capitalism with a conscious. whole foods' ceo john mackey is here with his take on making money with morality. we'll be back in a moment.

new developments in that months tan situation in algeria where americans are among the dozens captured wednesday by islamic militants. just today defense secretary leon panetta says the united states is working with british and algerian governments to help end the crisis while warning the terrorists they have, quote, no place to hide. a number of hostages were freed during a special forces raid. but at least six workers from the plant were killed. the associated press also reports a total of 18 militants were killed in the assault. the status of the americans involved is still unconfirmed. british prime minister david cameron went before the house of commons today with an update.

>>my disgust and condemnation at this brutal and savage terrorist attack that has been unfolding in algeria. we will stand with the algerians in their fight against these terrorist forces. but i also emphasize the importance, the paramount importance, of securing the safety of the hostages. >> governments around the world are expressing concern about the way algeria has handled the situation. gillian, you know a bit about algeria. it is the wild west again out there. >> yeah. well, i know quite a lot about algeria. and the key issue is that across the zahara, essentially al qaeda is regrouping. they recently launched big attacks in mali. the french went in to mali to try and crush al qaeda and keep the islamic extremists at bay. and what's happened with algeria now is basically a reprisal partly because of what the french did. three key takeaways. one, it shows that al qaeda is still very much out there. they go across borders. it's not just a question of operating within nation states. and what's happening in the

saharan region is very important. two, it shows that actually what happened in libya with the intervention there has spread even more arms across the region, and that's one thing that's fueling the insurgency here. and three, coming back to the president's speech, it indicates that foreign policy is not going to go away as an issue for the white house. and one interesting factoid is when they went into iraq, they made senior officials sit down and watch the battle of algiers back in 1957 because that was the prototype of how to get it wrong in terms of trying to suppress extremists in armed conflict. and essentially the echoes of that original algerian war are still reverberating even today. and not even the white house can escape them. >> what's that movie called? >> al qaeda is today a franchise operation. up next, whole foods' ceo john mackey is here with his new book that puts a new spin on capitalism. we're going to be back in a minute. (announcer) make mornings special,

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and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. here in manhattan, at least, i don't know about you, but i spend a good part of each and every day at the whole foods on columbus circle storing up on great groceries. >> looking at perfect tangerines. >> absolutely. joining us now, co-founder and ceo of whole foods, john mackey out with a new book "conscious capitalism: liberating the heroic spirit of business." mr. mackey, let me ask you. a couple of weeks ago, you indicated you made a mistake in using the word, but you compared the health care program, obamacare, to fascism. my question to you is doing most

of my whole foods shopping in cambridge, massachusetts, i have to fight through a line of prius automobiles, volvo station wagons. what happens to your base, or has anything happened to your base because of that remark? >> well, the remark was made just a couple of days ago. it's a little early to tell. i don't think it will hurt sales. i think when we had health care controversy back in 2009, our sales actually went up. a lot of people get upset, but this is america. there are lots of diversity and opinions. and that's what makes for vital democracy. >> tell me why -- obviously, you believe in conscious capitalism. define conscious capitalism. >> conscious capitalism is a better way to do business. it's reframing business and capitalism in terms of every business has the potential for higher purpose as well as

creating win-win-win-win strate strategies. customers, employees, suppliers, investors can win and the communities can win. >> so there's a societal good that you're talking about in this serving your customers and making them happy. >> yes. >> one striking thing about your stores, your employees seem happy and competent. which aspects of conscious capitalism helped foster that in your store and could in other places? >> "a," i think business needs to discover its higher purpose beyond just making money. the narrative about business is that it's fundamentally selfish and greedy and ex-ploploitative. i don't think that's the normal state for most businesses. and just like doctors have a higher purpose, they heal people. journalists reveal the truth. architects design buildings. hopefully businesses are creating value for their customers and for all of their stakeholders. and that's the message that needs to be told. that's the message we're telling in the book. >> you know, we recently heard from walmart that they were

going to hire 100,000 veterans over the next five years. do you see this kind of effort toward conscious capitalism the future? you know, "forbes" just released its list of great companies to work for. wegman's is on it. is that the kind of thing people want to see increasingly out of big businesses? >> it is. gallup poll shows that the approval rating for big business in america is 19%, right around where congress is. >> yeah. >> so it's not very well esteemed. business does great good in the word, creates value, creates prosperity, helping lift humanity up and progress. and we need to get business past this idea that it's all about the bottom line. businesses have to make money to be sure. but they need a higher transcendent purpose. >> two things are going, one is how do businesses perceive themselves, how does society perceive businesses.

you're trying to instill corporate culture and also a different way of thinking about what they do. >> that's absolutely correct. we want to change the narrative about business, the way people think about business and then the way business is practiced. >> think about besides obviously whole foods, besides obviously whole foods, we don't want to make this a whole commercial for your company which we love but what are other companies that practice conscious capitalism. name three and why each qualifies for this, falls under this rubric? looking at the table and the product placement for starbucks i would list starbucks as a very conscious company, very socially responsible. they care about their employees. they create value for customers. i think google is an amazing company. very conscious, sense of social responsibility. ranked number one as the hundred best companies to work for three or four times. a very inspiring company, creating products that make our lives better. southwest airlines is an older, traditional, airline company

that has been a great place to work, has led the airline industry. i think they're another great example. >> it is fair to say that one of the key components of conscious capitalism means free snacks for employees, right? if you don't have free snacks you can't qualify. >> we'll keep that one in mind. >> okay. >> you know, off of mark's observation about the employees at whole foods no matter which one you go into they seem to be a fairly happy group of people. certainly happy to deal with the customer. but let's set the groceries aside. what are your employees' health benefits? what can you do for your employees in terms of their health care? >> well, every team member that works for the company that works 30 hours or more which is 75%, is automatically enrolled in our health insurance plan. we pay their premiums and we also -- it is a high deductible plan so they have to get past the deductible of about $3,000 but we deposit $1800 in a personal wellness account to use toward the deductible. anything not spent rolls over to the next year and they can use

it for things like dental care, contact lenses or things that might not be covered by the health plan. we let our team members vote on it every three years. we take morale surveys. our health care plan is very popular with our team member base. >> it sounds as if it would be, yes. what were you saying about the $1800? is it a roll over account? >> if you don't spend it yes. like a health savings. we call it a personal wellness account. it is their money. do what they please as long as it is spent on health care. so that empowers them to make a lot of their own choices. very interesting. once you start spending your own money instead of somebody else's you tend to be more careful. you don't waste it so much. you try to find out what things cost before you spend it. >> is obama care going to destroy the american economy in your view? >> that is a pretty loaded question. i think i'll avoid that one. i don't know. i will state that i am a -- i believe greatly in free enterprise capitalism. i really believe that people need to be able to create and voluntarily exchange with each

other. i don't like to see the government overly dominate things. it creates bureaucracy, slows down innovation. one size doesn't fit all in health care or anything else. we're moving toward one size fits all and i don't think that is the way you should be going. >> mika brzenzski certainly wishes she could have been here for this because one of her big beefs with whole food is she can't find oreo cookies and coca-cola. i'm kidding. you know, she is -- >> there are perfekt -- >> if she does find them let me know because they shouldn't be there. >> whoa! the book is "conscious capitalism" john mackey, thanks. we appreciate it. more "morning joe" in a moment.

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you might want to take notes. we'll look ahead to monday morning when "morning joe" and "way too early" will be live from washington, d.c. for the president's inauguration. join us live starting at 5:30 a.m. our guests include former secretary of state colin powell, white house senior adviser valerie jarret and david axelrod

and the great, great, "new york times" columnist and our friend maureen dowd. up next a stoic lance armstrong tries to salvage what is left of his reputation and stage another comeback. good luck, lance. he tells some of the truth to oprah, slowly, next on "morning joe." at 1:45, the aflac duck was brought in with multiple lacerations to the wing and a fractured beak. surgery was successful, but he will be in a cast until it is fully healed, possibly several months. so, if the duck isn't able to work, how will he pay for his living expenses? aflac. like his rent and car payments? aflac. what about gas and groceries? aflac. cell phone? aflac, but i doubt he'll be using his phone for quite a while cause like i said, he has a fractured beak. [ male announcer ] send the aflac duck a get-well card at getwellduck.com.

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we have a recording of a

phone koers between monti and his supposed girlfriend. i got to be honest. i'm surprised monti didn't pick up on the hoax sooner. take a listen to this. >> hey, baby. what are you up to tonight? >> your call is very important. please listen carefully as the options have changed. >> yeah, thinking i might stay in tonight. >> me too. i plan on just chilling like a villain. laughing out loud. but seriously i missed you. >> i don't know. i could tell. >> good morning. it is friday, 8:00 a.m. on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. you better get up. it is already 5:00. we take a wide look at new york city. i'm mark barnicle in for joe and mika. i don't know. i don't care about lance armstrong. >> you have no opinion or just dismissing the whole story? >> he has to be the luckiest guy in the world.

>> or the other way around. >> i mean, manti comes in and takes the whole thing away. >> back when i was a kid you talked about real things like salary disputes and ratings not all these controversies. >> the manti teo thing, this one aspect that i find kind of really interesting is this. we live in a culture, if you look around today people walking around on their cell phones walking through traffic almost getting hit by cars, texting people, we live in a no eye contact era. it is not that surprising that someone is going to go online and get it. that happens all the time. okay? this guy, what i think happened with this guy first of all, i figure he is not exactly -- >> he has a pretty good gpa. >> i don't think so. >> you think he was taken like astronomy? >> almost pulled off one of the greatest hoaxes ever.

give him a little credit. >> you think he was in on it from the beginning? >> i tend to. some of the details don't really make sense. and really the media deserves all the blame here. i can't imagine being an editor at a newspaper or magazine seeing this story of this gorgeous stanford girl that this great football player met and not dispatching a reporter immediately to go meet her and put her on camera. there was just total negligence all the way around. >> no one knew about her until -- i mean, really no one knew until after oh, she is dead. she died of leukemia. that is when it became a big story. >> sure. but in this day and age it is so easy. information is at our finger tips. it is so easy to check and recheck some of this information. >> there are a lot of things you would have thought someone would pick up on. what was your theory? >> i just think too many people have created this imaginary texting, tweeting world. >> i thought there was going to be a more elaborate --

>> no, no. on the dead girlfriend, i mean, she dies of leukemia. she was in the car crash and everything. it's human nature if you are reporting -- i agree with you on the media but you go, manti, i'm sorry, your girlfriend, she died of leukemia and everything like that. do you have a death certificate? >> i need some proof. >> but still. you want to talk to her family, her friends. that is covering the story. >> it was him. he was the story. >> she turned out to be the story. >> sure did. >> what is interesting about him and armstrong together is the media thing. both kind of on some basic level implausible stories that people including a lot of reporters wanted to believe. a lot of willing suspension of disbelief in both stories where the basic facts, you look back and none of this really adds up. at the time people want so much to believe in these stories that they're willing to kind of withhold skepticism. >> i agree. another big sports story, one of

the longest running lies in the history of sports is partially over. there is no doubt lance armstrong's remarkable journey of comeback and triumph was a fraudulent fairy tale. in the interview he did last night aired last night with oprah winfrey armstrong the disgraced seven-time tour de france winner confessed repeatedly to cheating throughout his cycling career. >> wow. >> did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> yes or no, was one of those banned substances epo? >> yes. >> did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance? >> yes. >> did you ever use any other banned substances like testosterone, cortisone, or human growth hormone? >> yes. >> yes or no, in all seven of your tour de france victories, did you ever take banned substances or blood dope?

>> yes. >> was it a big deal to you? did it feel wrong? >> at the time? >> mm-hmm. >> no. >> it did not even feel wrong. >> no. scary. >> did you feel bad about it? >> no. even scarier. >> did you feel in any way that you were cheating? >> no. the scariest. i had this exercise where, you know, i kept, you know -- i'm a cheat, a cheater, and i went in and looked up, just looked up the definition of cheat. >> yes? >> and the definition of cheat is to gain an advantage on a rival or a foe, you know, that they don't have or that, you know, i didn't view it that way. i viewed it as a level playing field. >> so we all have pretty much

the same reaction to that. >> he should have looked up the definition of sociopath. >> look. he clearly has a lot of pr consultants and was trying to execute something there. no one can look at that and think, oh, sympathetic. >> you know what that reminds me of is that two years ago i went down to a north carolina prison to interview bernie madoff and looking at him face to face i asked a series of questions. and i had exactly that same robotic response in that he's been told by his pr team he has to, a, look as if he is telling the truth and, b, as if he is sorry. what is going on is fascinating. you get the feeling he is almost talking about something else. there is this element of detachment. you realize coming back to john's question how do people sustain this? they manage to con others partly because for years they've been conning themselves and basically dealing with bit lies, compartmentalizing and acting as if the person doing this stuff is somebody else. >> now, do you think people care about this? >> i think they do.

you know, for me, i tend to believe rumor and hearsay when i hear it, so years ago the first time i started hearing this innuendo of him cheating i believed it and i thought he was a pretty bad guy. i can only imagine for the people who really believed in him and supported him and defended him that, yeah. this matters. that, yeah. this is going to have a really deleterious effect on culture and sports. this is the problem with sociopaths. i think in another setting he'd be a wall street cheat. he could be a serial killer in another setting. it is the same kind of behaviors. it's really scary stuff. >> i have to say, maybe i'm at the center of the table. i don't have any sympathy for the guy and his conduct in his life, the thuggishness and the way in which he is -- the way he has treated people who work for him, the way he treated journalists, people who challenged him, over the course

of time he exhibited a lot of horrific behavior but i will say this is a dirty sport and there is something true to the fact when he says, i was leveling the playing field. it is the fact that almost everyone in competitive cycling at a high level is doping. >> right. >> and that doesn't make it right because it is a rule. you shouldn't break the rules. >> yeah. >> but you can't say the entire sport is made up of socio paths. it is just not true. they're not all sociopaths. there's been a systematic thing that happened in that sport and a lot of other sports, competitive sports, where it became pervasive and people who wanted to be at the best, at the highest level came to convince themselves that they needed to have this in order to be competitive. >> right. so in response to your question, you know, do you care, part of the reason i think a lot of people at some level do not care is because the sport, itself, is not -- it is a european sport. >> blame it on the europeans. >> it is a european sport. >> there's a jingle.

>> in terms of people really -- >> yeah, but, mike, you know it's true. exactly the same thing happened in baseball. there was a period of time where a lot of players we know, some we admire some we don't, you know, a lot of players who had been great players. >> absolutely. >> barry bonds. one of the great players in the history of baseball whether he ever took a drug in his life. prior to the moment he decided he needed to juice. there was a period of time in baseball we all watched it happen. it wasn't a small thing, it wasn't aberration. it was dozens of players on every team. >> the big difference quickly before we get to the rest of the lance armstrong story is in baseball no one said anything. owners didn't say anything. other players didn't say anything. in cycling with armstrong a lot of people were saying stuff. >> i agree. >> in many ways that is why it was so destructive because many people think financing on wall street has been rigged explicitly or implicitly in favor of people and yet it has

taken a long time until we discovered someone like bernie madoff. to my mind one of the most interesting issues in the whole interview with armstrong was when he said he felt this need to keep control. he had to control the environment and the situation. and that, again is -- >> as john said the sports filled with cheating and everybody knows it. there is an aspect of the story with oprah hassling armstrong about he does seem to be different. in order to cover up what he was doing he ruined the lives of a lot of people to cover up including this woman emma o'riley armstrong's former masseuse and she says armstrong tried to, quote, make her life a living hell after she went public with some of the details of his doping operation. >> what do you want to say about emma o'riley? >> hey, she -- she's one of these people that i have to apologize to. she is one of these people that got run over, got bullied.

>> yeah. isn't she -- you sued her. >> ah, to be honest, oprah, we sued so many people i don't even -- i'm sure we did. >> you're suing people and you know that they're telling the truth. what is that? >> it's a major flaw and it's a guy who expected to get whatever he wanted and to control every outcome. and it's inexcusable and that's the -- when i say that there are people that will hear this and will never forgive me, i understand that. >> hey, you know, it's a major flaw. i'm sorry, emma. >> i'm sorry i sued you. it was part of my scheme. >> pretty cold. >> you don't always get a grasp on the ripple effect of some of these scandals. they feel immensely personal. you can sort of dismiss them

because it is just sports. if you look at recent hall inductions or noninductions mike piazza really suffered at the hands of everyone else in that circle at the time, suffered from innuendo about juicing when there was really no proof that he did. yes, i'm sticking up for mike piazza. i am a fan, a huge fan. i don't know that he'll ever get into the hall. he might. i hope he would. but the sort of ripple effect of these stories goes beyond just the people in your personal life, goes beyond just the press. it goes to people whose entire reputations get impund because of the actions of a few. >> and yet if you are a sociopath what you do is to block out the feelings of others and you have such tunnel vision and you basically create your own world and your split worlds inside your head. and that was what was going on for years. i mean, in many ways it's a huge pr disaster for armstrong because he comes across as such

a robotic, uncaring figure. i mean, he is not -- if he at least cried or looked as if he were sorry but how can anyone watch that and actually believe -- >> should he not have done it? >> personally i think it was a mistake to do it like this particularly on something like oprah winfrey which is supposed to be about showing emotions. >> i want the rehearsals with the pr executives. >> what happens when sociopathy merges with megalomania? >> cable tv. >> tiger woods maybe. >> good thought. >> back to bernie madoff. >> one thing we start to think about with all these stories, the things in the baseball hall last week made me think about it. there's, the thing that all sports and all society have to get to reckoning with at some point is the fact that the technology and science are going to raise these questions over and over again as we go forward because it is not totally clear where you start and draw the lines. right now we think tommy john surgery is okay even though it

is demonstrated if you do the surgery you come back with a stronger arm than before. that is a medical enhancement, not part of your natural gift or that you earned. at some point we'll have laser surgery that will make baseball players be able to do surgery on their eyes and be able to see better. is that a drug? something you should be allowed to have? people will be able to do things to their bodies to make them better performers without any earned element, without any effort. where do the lines get drawn between drug enhancements -- how do we figure out how to cope with the march of science in athletics? >> like a futureologist. >> last year you saw bartolo colon about 53 years old blood spinning. >> perfect example. >> came back from 93 miles an hour. that's okay. again, where do the lines get drawn? >> the reason i am here today is i had blood spun last night. >> i'm on a little hamster wheel that makes the spinning happen. >> and the pop tarts. >> please. you shared them with me.

>> the foil wrapper. >> yeah. >> coming up next how latinos are changing america. a fresh look at "parade" magazine's special issue on how the country's largest minority group is reshaping the nation. later, the president of the game show network but here with a story that is far from the game. david goldhill joins us for his new book with a provocative title, how american health care killed my father and how we can fix it. but first, sadly, is bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> very fitting on this friday. good morning to you, mike. as we go through the weekend all eyes will be on washington, d.c. the newscasts forecast looks simple, nice and quiet. a little chillier. d.c. has had an amazingly warm winter. you missed out on the snow yesterday. you haven't had much all winter long. we may see a few passing snow flurries but overall temperatures in the low 30s and we will see wind chills in the 20s so a little cold on monday in d.c. today's forecast a very nice day. look at the middle of the country. this has been a very warm

weather pattern. that's all going to change as we go through the weekend. we'll see a significant blast of cold air and in some cases the coldest temperatures of the winter season from minneapolis to madison, milwaukee, chicago, detroit, cleveland, and everywhere in the great lakes. it looks like sunday is the day when the cold air arrives for you. new england, monday into tuesday. so saturday's forecast, still looking at a pretty nice mild day from coast to coast but watch what happens in the northern plains starting sunday. minneapolis at 5 degrees. many areas of north dakota and northern minnesota won't even get above zero and as i said, that all gets to the east coast and it looks like it is going to linger probably at least tuesday, wednesday, into thursday of next week. probably won't even be until friday or saturday of next week and we begin to warm up from that big arctic plunge. so washington, d.c., you missed out on the snow. still looking pretty beautiful. sunshine in your forecast. but a lot of cold air on the way. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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one way to strengthen the middle class in america is to reform the immigration system so there is no longer a massive underground economy that exploits a cheap source of labor while depressing wages for everybody else. i want incomes for middle class families to rise again. i want prosperity in this country to be widely shared.

i want everybody to be able to reach that american dream and that is why immigration reform is an economic imperative. it is an economic imperative. >> the president of the united states, two years ago, speaking about comprehensive immigration reform in el paso. this sunday's "parade" magazine looks at how latinos are changing america featuring a round table discussion with a number of latino leaders led by the "today" show's natalie morales. joining us now the editor of "parade" maggie murphy along with christina jimenez who was part of the "parade" discussion. christina is the managing director of united we dream a nationwide effort of youth led immigration rights groups. what is your biggest frustration when it comes to immigration reform? >> thanks for having me on your show. the biggest frustration is the talk and talk and talk and talk and not serious action. i have been organizing for immigration and immigrant rights since i was 19. i am 28 today. i have been following the debate and it's been the rhetoric, the

talks from both parties, democrats and republicans, and the lack of action. what we're looking for in 2013 is action. >> tell me about your parents and yourself. >> i was born in ecuador and came at the age of 13. my parents and i came seeking what many immigrants throughout generations have come to this country for -- a better life. my parents feared i was not going to get access to good schools and higher education and we came here because my parents said we want to ensure kristina and my brother jonathan can have access to education. i'm actually the first in my family to graduate from college and in that way i realized the dreams of my parents coming into this country. >> one of the first times you've been on the cover of "parade" right? >> the first time. >> but maybe many more to come. >> what do you get out of convening a group like this? >> i think what you get is the beginning of a conversation, a kitchen table conversation. you know, to cristina's point

this is political. hopefully the president is going to address this in his inauguration speech. but to the 60 million americans who read "parade" every sunday this is a chance to put some faces together, to hear cristina's story which echoes mine. i am the daughter of immigrants, the first of my generation to graduate from college in my family. i see the stories of americans here. our panelists talk about this issue as access and opportunity and education. that was what was really great. larry gonzalez, natalie morales, obviously cristina and live, the colorado rockies co-owner brought her world series ring in the shoot. i think it is really just about getting to the point of once you move past policy this is really an issue of education and opportunity and potentially also sort of rebuilding these american values. >> what about the element of fear whenever this topic is raised? you know, the fear that, oh,

they're going to take our jobs. immigrants are going to take our jobs, which is, you know, bogus but it has to be addressed, that element of fear. >> the word you just used is the word "take" and i think people think people are going to come and take. but the truth is as we all know from our own experiences people do take but any give. what we get to in this conversation, the castro brothers, what a generation. a mayor and a house of representatives. julio tells a fabulous store bit how they were in the 8th grade or the 5th grade and basically a teacher got up and said, see all of you, half of you will not be here by the 8th grade. and the next day the mother took them out of that school and put them in another school because she was not going to accept less. i think that is what that kind of strength is what gives america its values. so i think the word needs to be there is some taking but there is a lot of giving.

>> immigrants want to integrate. we want to contribute, want to be fully integrated into the economy, and more than anything these values bring us all together. it is not only about latinos or immigrants, african-americans, whites, blacks, i mean we all have the shared values of opportunity, better life, working hard, reach your dream right? what are the critical elements of a successful immigration bill that you would like to see within the bill? >> united we dream are immigrant youth across the country we work with in 25 states are really looking at a pathway to citizenship for those of our families, my parents, who are undocumented and have been working really hard here, paying taxes, contributing, and they just really want to become fully integrated. >> how do you feel about the notion of people having to go back to their home countries and apply? >> i think we need to think about a policy that is going to be reflective of our values. fair, something that is going to

work, something that is going to be effective, and something that is going to embrace workers rights, raise and address the economy. right? we need to think about immigration not as an isolated policy. >> you know, one of the other things that is important to realize, you know, in 6 of 10 people of hispanic descent are born in the u.s. at this point. the immigration and latino culture, hispanic culture, these folks are here. they're contributing to society. what they want is more, a level playing field as linda alvarado use ness this. i also think that back to you we all remember the moment when governor romney laid out that plan during the debates and i think you guys know better than anybody what the price of that was. >> the power of the phrase "self-deportation". >> or the lack of. and the reality is we're looking at a population 50 million now. by 2050, 130 million americans can claim hispanic. you know, number of kids under

the age of 5 hispanic, cultural influence is i think at 22% so this is also a demographic that is going to have a huge influence in every factor of american life and i think immigration policy is just one way we're going to see that change. >> you saw that in the elections. i mean, it was pretty clear. >> yeah, well, in speaking of elections marco rubio senator from florida is going to be a pivotal figure in any discussion about immigration in this country. "the washington post" editorial board writes about senator rubio's efforts at immigration reform saying, quote, the center piece of mr. rubio's plan, a pathway to citizenship with stages, is new for him. as a candidate for the senate in 2010, he denounced amnesty for immigrants without papers. his position now labels not with standing represents a shift. it also requires guts. mr. rubio one of just three hispanics in the senate has made clear he is willing to lead. the question in the coming

months is whether his party's main stream in congress, in state capitals, can be coaxed toward moderation. what does senator rubio do about his colleagues over in the house of representatives? >> well, he is a key player and he is willing to work in coalition. i mean, right now in washington that is the key issue. are you willing to get over that one single threshold of working in coalition? do you think that the house is ever going to pass an immigration bill or do they do what they've been doing on most things and wait for the senate? >> i think those things can be true. i think they can wait for the senate but then they move on immigration. i think, you know, of all of the issues where it seems like a republican party has had a wakeup call, because of what happened in the 2012 elections and on the demographic front, this seems like the issue where they're most likely because their political interest is so clearly in getting on the right side of the ascendent new america. you think about the republican party. one of the things that was --

not actually paid attention to as much as it should have been, you think about suzanne martinez, brian sandoval, marco rubio, the republican party has a lot of hispanic, relative to the democratic party, has a bigger, higher profile hispanic leadership than the democratic party. they can make this move but it does come down to whether the obvious long-term interest of the party can prevail over some of the narrow, shorter-term interest of more parochial precincts where antiimmigrant sentiment is greater. i think on balance ultimately reality wins for the republican party and they have to get to a better place and they will. >> that means they look out the window and see what is going on in the country. the new issue of "parade" is on how latinos are changing america. thank you both very much for joining us. >> thank you. >> coming up our next guest calls the health care system an american tragedy. why david goldfield claims u.s. health care killed his father. he is right here next on "morning joe."

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[ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. now, that's progressive. call or click today. joining us now ceo of the game show network david goldhill the author of the new book "catastrophic care, how american

health care killed my father and how we can fix it." david, i know the story of your father from having read portions of the book but briefly why don't you indicate where the title comes from. what happened to your father? >> well, my interest in health care more broadly comes from my father having gonna a hospital five years ago and within 24 hours acquiring a series of hospital infections that ultimately killed him. obviously that's always a very deep, personal tragedy and you think of it in personal terms. a couple months after my father's death, i became aware that 100,000 people died a year from that cause and that most of these infections were preventible. that they were relatively easy ways to prevent most not all of them and what struck me as a businessman at that moment was what kind of industry doesn't have incentives to save lives at such low cost? what does that tell us about health care? that is really the start of what

is now a five-year investigation into some of the fundamental issues in health care. >> well, i mean, they have the incentives to save lives. that is why doctors and nurses are in health care. the other end of it, you know, at what cost, why is it that in this country with all of the tools that we have, all of the intellect available, we cannot get a grip on the fact that a lot of americans with the health care plans go to the doctor whether they get a flu shot or whatever, they have no idea of the cost. >> they don't. that is right. the lack of transparency on price is just one of the ways in which the system is so unusual from everything else we see. one of the things i talk about in the book is what i call the little picture which is you ask any person in this country about health care and they have a story. some are as mild as my test results were lost or one doctor didn't communicate with another or i waited for six hours in the emergency room. all the way through, the type of error that causes a real harm and potentially death. what i'm writing about is why is

it that all of us have a story about health care? what does the little picture tell us about the big picture in health care? you hit one of the most important elements which is we're not really the customer. that's why we don't know the prices. the customers are these giant intermediaries and we assume they'll do a good job for us but in fact the last 45 years have proven they've done a terrible job for us. >> there is a point about the little stories. everyone has a story. i have a story. my father was in the hospital a year and a half ago and what was interesting, and this gets to the point of your book, a very top guy, one of the guys who runs one of the major medical centers in los angeles when i was talking about my father's situation said the first thing you got to do is get him out of the hospital. >> right. >> the best thing for his health would be to get him out the hospital as fast as possible. you talk about this in the book about the horror of hospitals. talk about that here. >> what is very strange about that, right, is in this day and age with all the information technology we have, from the

minute you get to a hospital, you see almost a showcase of what the world would look like if we didn't have information technology. because it is almost nonexistent. my son needed an appendectomy a month ago. we go into an emergency room where they expect us. we fill out a lengthy form. before the surgery fill out the exact same form same hospital. what is that all about? what i argue it's about is that those incentives to be good at your job to deliver great customer service, to be safe, are tied to the incentives to deliver the appropriate quantity of care, quality of care, and price of care. and the fundamental argument i'm making is we've stripped that all out of health care and sa then say why is it so broken? when my dad was in the hospital he was three times taken for procedures meant for other patients. we wouldn't tolerate that at an auto mechanic but we give health care a pass we give nothing else in our lives. >> so you recommend consumer driven health care reform and

you've not been optimistic about what the affordable care act is going to accomplish. what kinds of things are you worried about? >> i think the affordable care act, while the heart may be in the right place, continues a confusion we've had for a long time that rules are incentives. incentives are fundamental economic things that explain what people do when they go to work every day. what i think we need to do over time is to start to restrict the insurance system. i submit i believe in national health insurance cradle to grave but i think it should be truly catastrophic because i think that is the only area insurance can handle without massive cost or massive distortion. we have to be carving it back over time and encouraging more of the massive amount of money we're spending on health care to go through individuals to make them the real customers. a big part of that is that health care itself is changing. you know, we've built our systems and many others have built theirs on what i call the firefighting model of health care. you're sick. you need to get fixed. less and less of health care is truly about that.

it is about managing lifestyle issues over long periods of time and is one of the reasons we have a hard time fitting it into our current system. >> do you think part of it though is that we are now and have been for some time, i don't know when it began, but part of, for lack of a better phrase, an entitlement culture, say you need two things in life among many others. you need an automobile and you need a doctor. you go to get the automobile and you say that is the car i want. and someone says what kind of sound system do you want in the car? you say how much does it cost? you go to a doctor and the doctor says you need an appendectomy and you never ask how much it costs. you figure' entitled to it. >> right. it is interesting. that system is all designed at this point to maintain an illusion that someone else is paying for our care. i run a company of 300 people. if you are an entry level person today you will have $10,000 paid into the system on your behalf by you and us when you look at insurance and taxes, single 23-year-old woman.

in the book i look at what the system will cost her over her lifetime. assuming the growth in health care costs is exactly zero something i think nobody believes, and she is the bread winner and she never gets rich and she never gets sick, she'll put $1.1 million into the health care system over her lifetime. an enormous amount of that is going to go to administration, to servicing the enormous complexity and distortion we've built into the system. the amount of money is so massive but at this point is maintaining something that isn't true that someone else is taking care of her. and i think when you -- give you another quick example. we spent $850 billion as a nation subsidizing medicare and paying for medicaid. you could give $8500 a year to 100 million americans to pay for their own health care every year. family of four, that is $34,000. that is how much money we're spending and what we're really doing is telling ourselves don't worry someone else is taking care of it with you point out

all the distortion that causes in the system. >> the book is "catastrophic care." david goldhill thanks very much. >> thanks for having me. >> appreciate it. up next business headlines with brian sullivan. we'll be right back in a minute. i've discovered gold.

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where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. they'll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. times square looking up toward central park. how lucky are we to have cnbc's brian sullivan right here with us? brian, how is it going, buddy? >> you know, it's going all right. how you doing over at 30 rock? we're here in the hinterlands of jersey. give me something good. >> we're here and you're there. give me something good. >> always love mr. peanut. mr. salty. the only food salt mascots that have guts these days. i tell you that much. before i give you the business

before the belly want to follow up on what you were talking about. at 2:00 p.m. on street signs we're doing a series of, really one interview, focusing on the statistics of the growing number of people now on permanent disability. it has boomed. as you know the workplace has gotten a lot safer in the last 20 or 30 years, right? fewer industrial accidents. >> not for me. >> except the "morning joe" set. one in 14 working age americans is now on disability. >> one in 14? >> it's gone up 250% since 1990. there are almost 11 million working age americans who are now on disability. 30% of whom have gone on the last couple years have gone on for what they call mood disorders and the other 30% for back pain which doctors ascribe to obesity. >> we've become a nation of shirkers. >> mood disorders and back pain almost every person on the set. >> halperin's back hurts right now. >> i'm cranky. >> heilman in a permanent mood

disorder. s.e. is the only healthy one here. >> i thought you said it was safer? >> it is a severe problem and no doubt a lot of people are on disability for the right reasons. but you can't have a safer workplace and have 250% more people collecting an average of $1100 a month and not have there be either the standards be too loose, whatever it might be. it goes to your discussion about the costs of health care. whatever you think about it, it is a lot of money. we got to solve it. anyway, business before the bell. "street signs" motto the last two years has been hope-i ucht m. now it should be cope-ium. the new "wall street journal" poll shows 60% of americans surveyed think the time is right to save and hold back because things are going to get tougher over the next couple years. only 34% of people surveyed were optimistic that things are going to get meaningfully better over the next couple years. you know the stock market is up, job market is bitteetter.

a year to hold back. people are concerned about the debt ceiling, concerned about the fragileness of the recovery, maybe that explains some of the mood disorders. people are nervous. who can blame them? the economy has stunk for the better part of five years. >> i'm an optimist. to prove it i'll go out right after the show and buy a new pair of sneakers right now today because of that. just because of what you said. >> chucks. >> the problem is this set is like a super fund site, just like toxic around here. >> oh, brian. thanks very much. >> good luck, everybody. >> thanks. >> looking ahead to monday morning, "morning joe" and "way too early" both live from the dubliner in washington, d.c. for the president's inauguration. come join us live starting at 5:30 a.m. morning papers up next. [ man ] i've been out there most of my life. you name it...i've hooked it.

but there's one... e that's always eluded me. thought i had it in the blizzard of '93. ha! never even came close. sometimes, i actually think it's mocking me. [ engine revs ] what?! quattro!!!!! ♪

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turns out that the subway foot long is sometimes 11 inches. we have been $5 foot wronged. now we know how jared lost all that weight. he starved to death. subway, it is over. i'm going to be keeping you

honest by measuring every sandwich with the most accurate means possible, my fruit by the foot. >> we asked people what they thought of the inauguration even though it hasn't happened yet. >> what did you think of the inauguration yesterday? >> i didn't really care for it. >> do you like his speech? >> yeah. it's from the heart. i really, you know, it was moving. brought a tear to my eye. >> what did you think when joe biden cried? >> i thought it was a little sentimental. warmed my heart. >> what did you think of the menage performance? >> i loved it. it was really i guess urban, what today is. >> what did you think of the inauguration last night? >> i didn't like it. you didn't like it. did you enjoy the tap routine? >> it was the only thing that was kind of worth it. >> it was fun right? >> yeah. it was okay. >> ah. it was. we watched it together. >> yeah.

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this is the most popular segment of american tv. >> through the roof. >> what have we learned today? i'll take notes. >> i learned the reason why there is a line from 30 rock all the way practically to the east river is because "saturday night live" jennifer lawrence guest host, musical guests, luminares, i'm going on craigslist to try to get into that. >> i can help you out. >> okay. put me down for two. >> besides getting up way too early. >> right. totally not worth it. >> you're on at 3:00 this afternoon. >> yes "the cycle" 3:00 every day. i learned today though that between lance armstrong, manti teo and now subway there is now no one left to trust. >> really? what about the hosts of "the cycle?" >> it's over. >> what about the hosts? you can always trust -- >> nobody, nobody. >> i think you can trust her. >> i learned that the ceo of whole foods which we love for